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112008-end-game-itemization-changes
Content ---- ---- This part is the part I am currently interested in and a slightly bit confused about. Only omni slots or partially omni slots? (easiest question you'll probably have to answer, it's either 1 or the other.) | |} ---- Partial omni slots. I don't have a definite number quite yet, but the intent is that the remaining slots will still be randomized. | |} ---- ---- ---- So where does this put research gear, especially the first four tiers? Seeing as some of the pieces can take 54 days to unlock, it seems like a waste of time if adventure drops will outclass them completely. | |} ---- Are we taking the new power cores into consideration here? | |} ---- ---- This at least would be nice considering the reason to not apply this to random pieces can't be applied here. We already know what spec and role they are for. | |} ---- I dont see a problem is a few of the tier 4 items are worse than some adventure / dungeon gear. But in the current state of itemization i was 7/12 pre-raid best in slot (and a top 3 weapon) 30 minutes into hitting lvl 50 due to the fact that crafted pieces are so good and require so few materials. All i did was ask a guildmate to craft all the bis pieces for me because i wasnt on that tier yet. It cost me like 2 plat or so to get all 8 of the items. | |} ---- ---- From what i understand it will be a drop that is rolled for. For example: You kill a boss and it drops 3 pieces of head gear one for Warrior/Engineer one for Esper/Spellslinger and one for Medic/Stalker. Your group bids dkp / rolls / lootcouncils each of them out to a player. I'm not sure if it will be divided into one type of gear per boss or if it will be random on all bosses which piece drops. I dont even know if it will drop one of each or if you can get 3x Medium armor from one boss. But i know for sure that it wont be "everyone gets one piece of gear". | |} ---- ---- Are there any plans to add some kind of set boni to the class sets? It seems like the easiest solution to differentiate them from the normal gear, and being used to tier sets from so many other games I´m kind of missing them here in Wildstar. | |} ---- ---- The set Runes are the set bonuses in WildStar. | |} ---- ---- Yea its a token, but its probably divided into different tokens. Lets say you need the head token to turn it in for a piece of head gear, a leg token to turn in for a piece of legs. Not 1 token for all gear. (This is just my understanding, dont think they have specified it anywhere). The reason behind crafted gear being worse than raid gear should be obvious. As in any mmorpg in the world, you will need to do more difficult content to get better gear... ofcourse this includes crafting aswell. If you want to be able to craft the best crafted thingys in the game. You need to do the most difficult content in the game to craft it. | |} ---- ---- itemization for PvP gear is fine, only change they could consider is it giving you a larger health pool. | |} ---- I am confused about this, how is not changing existing gears to something more adapted to their classes/roles is going to not make "people who have already dedicated a fair amount of time feel as though time in the spaces has been wasted". Or did you mean that you actually trying to find an other solution for these people/gears. Once again, what about people that already have class-specific set pieces? Are they going to be changed to be equal to the new beter set pieces? Are we going to be able to "trade" them for the respective token or gear? Like selling an esper set helm gives you a Light Helm Token? Althought I understand and completly validate your buffing/nerfing concerns, (even though its pretty obvious in 95% of cases to which class/role a certain piece of gear is destined to) I do have some fear concerning these changes. Otherwise these changes look very promising :) keep up the good work! | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- ^ Rune-Sets are nice but a bonus specifically for your class... to boost some of your unique abilities would be amazing. | |} ---- ---- New or old doesn't matter, since neither depend on drops from adventures or higher and thus shouldn't be competitive with group content under this itemization scheme. Plus, the new cores aren't a higher quality, so a Luminite-Hybrid Power Core is just making a blue weapon with better stats compared to the Dual Hybrid Power Core but not higher base AP/SP. And the tier 5s, which need raid materials and thus will be up there with raid drops, will still be available to the masses seeing as the Suspended Biophage Clusters aren't soulbound, nor are the end products. In a game where all crafted products are BoE it is lazy to say that crafted gear should be worthless because its BoE regardless of how long it takes to learn the schematic. And a CW-4 Greatsword that can't compete with blue Veteran Adventure drops absolutely would be worthless. | |} ---- Watch the live streams. Rune sets will be the only bonuses, he already said on the live stream there will not be any set bonuses in wildstar gear. | |} ---- Hmm this look like it has the potential to be another gating mechanic (maybe a tin foil hat moment as well) To explain, there are bosses in other MMO's that deal an un-interruptable raid wide damage that requires players to have x health in order to survive. So we have raiders swapping in PvP or Tank gear, re-runing, you name it to try and hit these targets. This in turn makes any DPS/HPS checks more difficult to achieve and voila you have another gate. Other than that I actually like these "planned" changes :) | |} ---- ---- ---- Because this is a themepark model what requires specific rewards for specific challenges to not bypass said challenges no other source of items can be as good, the game struggled enough due to the "carrot" being effected. Crafters playing a themepark mmo are either new to mmo's or naive. Crafting is there to provide a backup method to get gear always has and always will in these type of mmo's. The content outside of raiding to help you progress will follow that same design ideology, group content rewards will always be inferior to solo rewards, crafting rewards will be inferior to both. You had a thread about items being turned into tokens followed by a slippery slope argument? No, you don't say where was that! | |} ---- Believe we already partially see that as we move on the mobs start to hit harder in the open world as well, you can notice this also when leveling solo ignoring item upgrades, the lower your armor/health the harder time you got. In anyway i wouldn't look at this as an exclusive raid gate mechanic. | |} ---- There may as well not be a crafting system if it's just going to end up another line of busy work with a time and gold sink. It's entirely irrelevant that "it's a theme park" and there can and should be a design where a dedicated crafter can make things as good or better then item drops. Carbine stood on their head to prmise elder game progression for solo, small group and raids… and you'd be heard pressed to see any of that besides raids. Crafting should be one avenue for fulfill that promise at least for itemization. Also, tokens are dumb and lazy as I've demonstrated at length in my other thread. I'd love to hear an explanation why "no tokens" were a good idea for 9 years of development, but 3 months after, they are. | |} ---- Well basicly because after 9 years of development the game pretty much died after being released for 3 months. New people are working on trying to bring the game back to life so the well-recieved already working model of gear tokens is being implemented since its working in every other game available. | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- Hallelujah ! And please, no more LQE with only Insight/Moxie, Espers just don't have any good LQE. | |} ---- ---- ---- Crafting as the EG vendor is a back up method of getting gear. As for tokens, clearly you don't raid otherwise you wouldn't be opposed to it or you don't raid enough so that loot is so rare that it doesn't become an issue for you. Also if you don't raid why are you arguing against something that doesn't effect you in anyway? It's a good design and it's still used in WoW today successfully, cause less RNG on loot is better. This isn't diablo 3. You do know that carbine always stated J-tal to be exact that raid loot would always be the best for PvE purposes right? Feel free to go back to wildstar central and refresh your memory to their exact plans since beta. The solo items that they were talking about would've been differently itemized. Yes they didn't deliver on that but they never said crafted or solo gear would be equally better. | |} ---- They never said that. I raid, and I don't care. Tokens are dumb and unnecessary unless you're trying to build a game that WildStar is not. And you may need to visit Gortok's post to clear your mind about what was said about crafting itemization... | |} ---- Gortok also said that said items that were on par with raid gear would require reagents from raids. #selectivememoryfails. If you raid and are against it you're simply not getting enough loot to hand out, that simple really. Smart design trumps buzzwords as "lazy design" every time. | |} ---- I don't think you understand Lethality's Wildstar mentality. -_- Feel free to disagree with him (I do, a lot), but these "you think like this only because ******" just doesn't cut it in his case. | |} ---- You mean let's keep atrocious design flaws in for the sake of making things more tedious. because that makes the game more #hardcore. Please no QoL changes people might actually start enjoying the game! It's the same mentality that prevents PvE to PvP server transfers, it's outdated and based on principles for the sake of it, consider it's all based on a slippery slope fallacy that we would get everything completely token based as back up loot. While this isn't even for back up loot and we already have a back up loot system in place called an elder gem vendor. | |} ---- ---- Can your team please do this same review for existing PvP items? The stats are not very attractive in many cases. Also, will the rating numbers for secondary stats ever be adjusted to make them even remotely interesting next to primary stats? I'd take 50 brutality (as a stalker) over 100 moxie any day. | |} ---- Its been mentioned a few times that the gear would naturally nerf the hardcore content for more players pass through the raids... probably to get closer to projected raid quotas im assuming this is the first wave of it. So going back and aquiring the new gear from GA will help with the DS progression. | |} ---- ---- While that is true that was mentioned in the light of amp and tier upgrades and natural gear progression based on the current available gear. This new gear will be better providing higher overall stat values. So that means the initial curve envisioned will be different and fights might up becoming significantly more easier. | |} ---- Please we really need an answer to this question. Will we be able to trade/sell/anything our existing and already aquiered "set" gear to obtain the new and beter "set" gear. Alot of us works with loot system like DKP and EPGP, etc. If there is no way to trade our existing set pieces for their token, gear or our old set being updated this will be a hard lost for many people. I would also feel like not "wasting" my DKP/EPGP points at the moment in a set piece drop NOW because that would affect my priority when the new set piece drops. | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- Some of the stats on pieces shouldn't be their tanking stats on dps gear? sure thing! fine! | |} ---- ---- I take it, then, that you'll also be closing itemization holes? There are four specs that currently don't have a purple weapon drop till Vet Dungeons, and then its on the old gold medal table so its fairly rare. Or is the plan to buff blue weapons from dungeons to be on par with tier 3/4 research gear? Because I'd argue that no medaling or bronzing dungeons isn't significantly harder than research crafting, and can be done a lot sooner. Would you say these tiers also roughly correspond to research tiers, perhaps offset by 1 (so research tier 1 and 2 will be about your tier 1, and research tier 3 and 4 will be about your tier 2, depending on the strength of the specials)? If so then that would work out fine. Also, I find it interesting that Protogames is being set up as a step above Veteran Dungeons. So much for people hoping to have an easy time in attunement by doing it instead of SSM. How does the Augmentors 20 fit into that progression? To take a break from harping on crafting concerns, I thought I'd add my voice here in saying that this is something that absolutely needs to happen. There shouldn't be any of the same issues with offset gear, since it is class restricted so you know the ones using it are the intended target. Edited September 3, 2014 by dinwitt | |} ---- So it sounds like you want crafting research to get you gear of quality approximately Tier 1.5. If that's the case, then once ProtoGames is out, you can either run crafting dailies for two full months and spend probably 25+ plat worth of materials and components, *or* you can just pug Vet ProtoGames and get better gear immediately? Sure, ProtoGames is probably more difficult, but is a two month time investment plus 3-4 CREDD worth of monetary investment *really* worth that little? Like, if that's the case then I'll just stop crafting right now. The cost/benefit ratio is already pretty bad... | |} ---- It's been pretty apparent for a while now that this will be the case. Which is unfortunate, because as you say there's a significant time and energy investment to craft high-quality gear. Of course it can be bought, but the eldan data rations put a limit on what can be made. For me, I've moved on to other activities in game. Crafting is fun, but crafting pointless things isn't. | |} ---- To be fair, PvP isnt as black and white as "DPS" vs "Support" gear. A damage dealer in PvP is going to need defensive capabiltiies aswell. Its not just about dishing out as much damage as possible. But yea, deflect rating on one item and moxie / brutality on the others isnt exactly what should be happening. The gear should have a mix of stats, a warrior example would be: 45 brutality, 40 moxie, 30 insight 40 grit... or something like that. A healthy balance of damage and survivability with focus on damage. The support verson of those stats would be something like 30 brutality 40 moxie 45 insight 40 grit. And to be fair, these changes should also be applied to crafted gear. The reason crafted pieces are best in slot pre-raid at the moment is because you can minimize all the unimportant stats and just max out your main stat. My chest for example has 125 brutality and like 20 moxie and 3 hit rating. If there was some kind of stat cap or floor then crafted items would still remain interesting pre dungeon / adventure but not be as imba as they are now seeing how instance drops always have a mix of stats... why shouldnt crafted gear be forced to follow the same pattern? The only other fix i can think of for crafted gear is reducing how good the main DPS stat is (brutality in the case for warriors) but from the looks of it we are getting a buff to that stat instead (they are removing the damage increase from stances and instead buff the AP gain from brutality). This will result in crafted gear being even better than it currently is. | |} ---- Hopefully they wont make crafting gear useless between voucher schematics and raid schematics. Hopefully they will add some kind of schematic drops or crafting daileys to dungeons / protogames that would result in that kind of tier crafted gear. I just hope it wont be like now that each tier will have 6-7 crafted pieces that are best in slot. It took away a lot of my excitement for dungeons / adventures when i realized i could ask a guildmate to craft me 7 pre-raid bis pieces for a cost of less than 2 plat. 1-2 pieces for a higher cost would be great, since people are always going to be willing to pay big bucks if what they get is the best possible items they can currently obtain for that slot. | |} ---- The Tier 5 schematics that are going to drop in GA are off of the tech tree and in their own independent node. You don't need to mess with tiers one through four in order to learn the tier five. So if the first four tiers aren't useful in their own right then there's little point in messing with the whole research system. You won't even need to mess with eldan data fragments. Ironically, Technologist Research may be one of the few worth investing in when its implemented, which could happen simultaneously with the gutting of the other researches. Crafted gear being BiS depends heavily on getting near perfect runes, which can take hundreds of crafts, so if that only cost you a couple of plat then you were extremely lucky (especially considering the cost of dual hybrids). The rune changes alone will do a lot to reduce the relative power of crafted gear, both in limiting the rune slots they can get and allowing people to improve the runes of dropped gear without needing to obtain the drop again. | |} ---- ---- Dont need bis runes to have my crafted gear be bis. As long as i have 100+ brutality on a piece, its better than anything that drop. Ofc if i want the absolute best i want the optimal rune slots aswell. But +125 brut chest with 2 water slots is still better than most other pre raid chests, unless you find a chest with 3+ fire / fusion slots. and around 60 brutality. | |} ---- ---- ---- sorry when i necro this thread, but i have a question. how will you deal with players who got full legendary gear? do you know how much work and effort you have to put in to progress in datascape, get your gear, rune mats, runic modules and flux? do you really think that your "trade compensation" is enough? lets be honest, the players who have killed multiple bosses in DS and acquired their legendary gear deserve the class items already. now you want to make them suffer and let them re-do all the work because your item system is/was flawed? | |} ---- ---- ----